Panthers are the worst.

"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii) 05/08/2015 at 14:48 • Filed to: None

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472CID’s list of malaise horsepower ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )got me thinking about other eras in horsepower. Now I’m not going to list off the most powerful cars of the mid 90’s, but it got me thinking about an honorable mention, the 1996 Impala SS. Here is a place that has a strong love affair with the Panther, but rarely do I see mentions of the far superior BOF V8 Sedan. (obvious exception for the RCR of the cammaster)

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Here’s an exhaustive list of Panther cars with more power:

2003-2004 Maurader (However, it is still down on torque)

The only explanation I see is that the Panthers are much more numerous these days, while B-Bodies are more uncommon. An extra decade of unchallenged fleet sales will do that.

B-body>Panther

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 14:52

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Yep, yep! I CP’s that Panther with the 5.0 swap yesterday, and umm, yeah... People like Panthers, but most don’t seem to know why. It’s great as a stupid cheap car that’s easy to keep on the road, but not much else.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 14:54

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Well, it would make sense if you put a 6.8L Triton V10 into a Grand Marquis.

But since Ford didn’t do that, they really are only the fleet special.

(Note: I’m still plotting how to put said Triton V10 into my neighbor’s Grand Marquis)

LongbowMkII > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 05/08/2015 at 14:56

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I could then counter your V10 with a supercharged LSx. Although, I must admit a V10 panther would be amazing.

William Byrd > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/08/2015 at 14:56

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“stupid cheap RWD V8 car that’s very comfortable and easy to keep on the road”

Fixed it for you. Part of it’s allure, no?

bob and john > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 14:57

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pprrreeeeetttttyyyyy sure they have been made. I know 5-speed swaps have been done

Party-vi > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 14:58

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So the performance variant of the B-body car made 10hp less than the performance variant of the Panther-body car. Got it.

ETA: 40hp less, as pointed out by LongbowMkII

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > William Byrd 05/08/2015 at 15:00

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Yeah, but only for fantasy reasons. Yes, it’s RWD. It’s also a 4000 lb body-on-frame dinosaur. It’s not fun to drive, and isn’t a performance car. The only advantage that being RWD gives it is it being easier to change the belts. The V8 isn’t powerful. Most are putting out around 220 hp, which is really not alot in a car that weighs that much, and especially when you pair it with that 4-speed slushbox.

For Sweden > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 05/08/2015 at 15:00

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People do this.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Party-vi 05/08/2015 at 15:02

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Ten years earlier.

William Byrd > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/08/2015 at 15:02

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Compared to...a sport car? A Minivan? A Camry?

These guys disagree:

http://www.bsr-inc.com/

I’ve done some hot laps in a Crown Vic at Summit Point and it was a blast.

The Caprice sucked as much as the Crown Vic by your definition. I’ll agree the SS > Marauder though. Ford had (1) car to beat!

LongbowMkII > Party-vi 05/08/2015 at 15:03

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No, The performance variant of the B-Body actually made 40hp less.

10 freaking years earlier.

Party-vi > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 15:07

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Ah - I must have been working off some old information. I was under the impression the Marauder had 270hp, not 302hp.

Also, I don’t think your decade argument works here considering the 1996 Crown Vic used the 4.6L Modular engine just like the Marauder did and the Chevy has a whole liter of displacement on the Ford.

LongbowMkII > bob and john 05/08/2015 at 15:09

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Of course they’ve been made. If people weren’t swapping crazy things into cheap easy to work on chassis then we truly are in a dark age.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Party-vi 05/08/2015 at 15:11

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It has a decade of development on the Chevy. Take an LS1 5.7, downtune slightly, and that's a better comparison.

LongbowMkII > Party-vi 05/08/2015 at 15:11

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well the high output 4.6 was putting out 225hp in 1996.

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > bob and john 05/08/2015 at 15:11

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http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/…

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > William Byrd 05/08/2015 at 15:11

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I think that the Caprice in non-wagon form is crap too, and my love of the wagon version has to do with pure utility. I like the panther for pure utility, too. It’s just not a great car for the reasons people cite. As for the link you posted: really? A tactical driving school using panthers makes total sense since that’s what (up until recently) pretty much every law enforcement agency in the country was using almost exclusively. They didn’t pick it for it’s driving dynamics, they picked it because it’s what’s useful for their customers. Hot laps in pretty much anything is a blast. A friend of mine has an Echo beater that he got for a couple of hundred bucks that’s tons of fun to fling around a track. Actually, I think that that’s more fun than a Panther, to be honest.

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 05/08/2015 at 15:12

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http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/…

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > For Sweden 05/08/2015 at 15:13

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I know. I just want to do it for myself.

William Byrd > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/08/2015 at 15:13

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RWD > FWD

That’s just science.

Party-vi > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 15:17

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Not too shabby considering less than a decade earlier the HO 5.0L was doing the same.

KnowsAboutCars > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 15:18

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B-bodies are actually a lot more common than Panthers in Finland.

/Factsthatnobodyaskedfor

Party-vi > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 05/08/2015 at 15:18

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It’s a terrible comparison - a 4.6L DOHC engine to a 5.7L OHV engine.

LongbowMkII > KnowsAboutCars 05/08/2015 at 15:20

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Any country with that amount of F1 and Rally talent and the proper proportions of American sedans is a great country. Being able to out winter the Russians only adds to that mystique.

William Byrd > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/08/2015 at 15:22

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To refine my point, you aren’t going to go drifting around a track in most FWD cars and that makes the Panther superior to most mass produced econoboxes. Add better brakes and some shocks and/or springs and it’s a ton of fun.

KnowsAboutCars > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 15:27

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To make things even more jalop I think B-body wagons outnumber the sedans.

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 15:39

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100% agreed.

B-BODY MASTER RACE.

Schaefft > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 15:46

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Thats wrong, the DOHC version of the 4.6 made 280hp since late ‘92 and 290hp since ‘95 in the Mark VIII and Mark VIII LSC. In the Cobra, it made over 300hp.

LongbowMkII > Schaefft 05/08/2015 at 15:49

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Which Panther platform was that installed in? Edit: but you’re right, I overlooked the 4V 4.6. the high output 2v put out 225hp in 1996.

Schaefft > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 15:49

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I’d take a last gen b/d-body over a Panther any day of the week, but thats because I’m a long time Caprice fanboy. Such pretty cars. That doesn’t mean I don’t like certain Panther models, I think the ‘92 Crown Vic/Gran Marquis and Towncar are fantastic cars. So is the ‘98 Towncar. I want all of them!

Schaefft > KnowsAboutCars 05/08/2015 at 15:52

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The Caprice was officially sold in ‘91/92 in Germany (and most likely other European countries) so its not too surprising. Its not like anyone actually bought them, which is a real shame, but GM did have a head start. Every single Panther is a grey import.

ly2v8-Brian > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 16:10

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There is no comparison.

KnowsAboutCars > Schaefft 05/08/2015 at 16:23

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There were/are some companies which imported brand new cars over here from the US. I’d say most of our B-bodies were imported by them in the 80’s. Most were diesel powered wagons and many had their rear seat replaced with fixed plywood seat to make use of taxation loophole.

Manic Otti > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 17:48

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I have nothing against the Impala SS’s. They’re nice cars. I don’t care much for the interior; it’s 90’s GM-tastic. The Marauder has a nicer interior, to me.

LongbowMkII > Manic Otti 05/08/2015 at 18:02

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The interior is definitely a down point. The seats are nice if unsupportive. Although, I like to think of it as a passive agressive safety feature not to confuse your land yacht with a Miata.

If you love gray plastic it is heavenly.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > LongbowMkII 05/08/2015 at 18:51

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Dude: The ‘96 Impala 9C1 was the state of the art. In police service it was tops in acceleration, braking and fuel economy. More than an honorable mention, that car deserves its own class.

LongbowMkII > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/08/2015 at 21:06

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The brakes are astoundingly good. 60-0 in ~120 ft I think. Close to world class at the time and still damn good today.

Jedidiah > LongbowMkII 05/11/2015 at 16:34

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We had a LT1 Roadmaster and it was one of the worst cars we ever owned.

 > LongbowMkII 05/15/2015 at 14:48

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Too bad that b-body is ruined by shit quality plastics on the interior and piss poor handling. I’ve owned both and will take a Panther over a b-body just for the interior and overall build quality. B-body power is nice but it’s hardly worth choosing over a Vic. Panther will run circles around the b-body in handling department too.

 > LongbowMkII 05/15/2015 at 14:49

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4v 4.6 was installed in the Marauder. Crown Vic and Grand Marquis got the 2v.

 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/15/2015 at 14:50

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Too bad it handled like an elephant.

LongbowMkII >  05/15/2015 at 14:52

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I’ve driven a Panther before, the interior plastics were marginally better and comparing the handling wouldn’t be fair considering it was a Grand Marquis (2005-6 iirc correctly).

 > LongbowMkII 05/15/2015 at 15:02

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I’ve owned 1996 9C1 Caprice, 1985 Grand Marquis, 1989 Grand Marquis, 1992 Grand Marquis, 1996 Grand Marquis, 1996 Crown Vic, 2003 Crown Vic and 2003 Marauder.

The interior plastic and assembly quality of the Caprice is comparable to those of the 1985 and 1989 Grand Marquis. The Caprice felt more like a truck than a car. It also lacked in durability compared to Panthers. For example b-body has c-section frame rails so if you try to jack the Caprice under the frame rail it would collapse. Panther on the other hand had fully boxed frame. Caprice had metal inner fender liners which always rotted out. Panthers were plastic. Caprice also had a lot more interior noise. The LT1 was a pig on gas too.

The only things I liked about the Caprice over a Vic was extra torque and more leg room in the rear. There was also a lot more room under the hood due to smaller engine.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo >  05/15/2015 at 15:10

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Compared to what?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo >  05/15/2015 at 15:23

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I do not share your opinion. It was a large car with big wheels. I thought it was quite nimble for something its size.

I learned to drive on a ‘77 Caprice, Motor Trend’s car of the year, flawed though the ‘77 Caprice was. (My dream is to find one in mint condition and give it an LS engine, a dream that will probably turn to ash in the crematorium’s oven along with my dried-out frame.)

In the years since, I have disliked the Crown Vic because the cabin, floor to ceiling, is shorter by a few inches than the Impala was. Even in a Town Car — I owned an Executive for a short time — my legs were kind of out straight in the front seat. I bought and turned three Crown Vic cop cars a few years ago, and they were just not near as fast as the old LT-powered 9C1 Impalas.

LongbowMkII >  05/15/2015 at 15:26

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I’ve always seen good highway mpgs in the Impala. 23-26mpgs @~80mph. Granted I haven’t kept track of city mpgs, partially due to the digital odometer crapping out in like 1999 (I’ll concede build quality) and partially due to the fact that it likely sucks. but highway mpgs are good.

 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/15/2015 at 16:03

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Compared to Crown Vics of same generation. New Vics with rack and pinion is no comparison.